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Coil Winding Machine

:: EPE Chat Zone ­:: ­Radio Bygones Message Board :: » EPE Forum Archives 2007-2009 » Archive through 02 September, 2009 » Coil Winding Machine « Previous Next »

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bruce
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Username: bruce

Post Number: 163
Registered: 04-2008

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Posted on Friday, 14 August, 2009 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi
I want to wind a transformer whose secondary is 500 t approx. I've done this sort of thing many times in the past and the result is usually instant dissappointment. I'm considering investing in a machine.
There are designs for home-made gadgets, but I have my suspicions: it could take a lot of time and effort to create something that works well. And, besides the tensioner, how do you get the feeder to move side to side at exactly the right pitch?
Theres nothing on Ebay except some fairly useless Chinese stuff.
Does anyone have any experience in this area?

Bruce
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terry
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Post Number: 537
Registered: 05-2005

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Posted on Friday, 14 August, 2009 - 10:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I always wind by hand.

Terry
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boris
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Username: boris

Post Number: 432
Registered: 05-2005


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Posted on Saturday, 15 August, 2009 - 01:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unless you’re gonna be winding many coils, like for production, then the best bet is to guide/tension the wire manually and only mechanise the turning mechanism. A simple geared motor affair with a switch and a counter should be enough.

I don’t know how the pro’s do it, but if you want to go the whole hog, then how about something like this as an idea...

Tension is simple. Just feed the wire through hoop/eye that presses some tissue against the wire as frictional drag.

Then the wire goes through another small hoop/eye, this one is mounted on the end of a servo arm (standard RC model servo). The servo is controlled by a Picaxe and moves left and right with a rate proportional to the rotation speed of the bobbin turning mechanism. Use a simple magnet+reed switch on the bobbin rotating mechanism to count revs. A small Picaxe BASIC program will be able to drive the servo at the appropriate rate, and the ‘span’ of the coil can be adjusted by making the final loop closer or further from the servo centre.

Just an idea off the top of my head.
Thank you for not breeding.
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gordon
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Post Number: 540
Registered: 05-2005

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Posted on Saturday, 15 August, 2009 - 05:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You should be able to make something from a cheap cordless drill. I have used this method to wind several coils. You can usually find a nut,bolt, and washer arrangement to hold the coil former, with part of the bolt held in the drill chuck. To get better control, I made a MOSFET power switch to switch the drill on and off remotely, powered by a bench supply. A small clamp on the speed trigger can adjust the speed to suite the coil being wound. As Boris said, a counter is useful, and I used a Maplin ready made counter module, with a magnet placed on the chuck, and a Hall Effect sensor.
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alec_t
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Username: alec_t

Post Number: 46
Registered: 03-2009

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Posted on Saturday, 15 August, 2009 - 05:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi,
For smallish coils I've used this set-up:-
Bobbin mounted on a hand-cranked spindle on a support made from Meccano (I'm showing my age!)
Wire fed through a small-bore rubber tube to provide frictional tension, the tube exit being at least a metre from the spindle so that the wire spaces itself evenly on the bobbin (no need for side-to-side movement of the feed tube).
HTH,
Alec
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atferrari
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Username: atferrari

Post Number: 757
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Posted on Saturday, 15 August, 2009 - 09:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am not joking.

Published years ago as a solution for toroidal transformers.

Would you try it?

image/bmpsolution for toroids
engendro.bmp (73.0 k)

Agustín Tomás - Buenos Aires - Argentina
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terrym
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Post Number: 677
Registered: 05-2005

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Posted on Sunday, 16 August, 2009 - 05:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nuts & Volts published an article for a homemade winder using steppers in June 2005. Includes software to control it and calculate bobbin size depending on wire used etc.

TM
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bruce
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Username: bruce

Post Number: 164
Registered: 04-2008

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Posted on Sunday, 16 August, 2009 - 11:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks guys: this is all good stuff.
I need a few days to digest all this info

Bruce
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cammhifi
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Username: cammhifi

Post Number: 17
Registered: 05-2007


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Posted on Monday, 17 August, 2009 - 09:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi bruce

I usually wind my coils with a wooden handwheel setup and was thinking of making it automatic. I was going to look into a fishing reel winder mechanism, they are sometimes called coffee grinder reels. Anyway they have a dual left right threaded rod with a nut that moves from left to right at the front of the reel which would work quite nicely. For tension I'd run the wire thru a rubber grommet. One could turn up two wooden pulleys and drive them with an o ring and a 12v spit motor
Mac.
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cammhifi
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Post Number: 18
Registered: 05-2007


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Posted on Tuesday, 18 August, 2009 - 06:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi
I must just correct myself. The fishing reel is not the coffee grinder type but the open reel type.
Mac
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dean_huster
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Post Number: 267
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Posted on Tuesday, 18 August, 2009 - 02:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you're going to use a speed control, take a tip from sewing: put the control as a foot pedal to keep your hands free to get wrapped up in the winding process.
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muskrat
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Username: muskrat

Post Number: 47
Registered: 06-2009


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Posted on Tuesday, 18 August, 2009 - 07:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

@Dean Huster

Mental image of a pair of hands wrapped in miles of copper wire!!!
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hackinblack
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Post Number: 396
Registered: 09-2006

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Posted on Tuesday, 18 August, 2009 - 09:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the tension on other high speed coiling machines;which is what you are aiming at making
(think of sewing machines bobbin winders..) usually consists of two steel or ceramic disks,
pressed together by a coil spring,with the filament (wire,cotton,nylon etc.)sliding between them

this arrangement gives a fairly wear-resistant and reliable tensioning system,
the filament self-guides onto the former if allowed enough free play i.e enough space between bobbin and former

the techniques used to control these things where so closely guarded by the japanese i worked for,
they would routinely smash old machines with sledgehammers rather than let the chinese copy the designs!

though from what i saw,most EPE readers could give em a run for their money
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bruce
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Post Number: 168
Registered: 04-2008

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Posted on Wednesday, 19 August, 2009 - 11:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK guys that's a lot to ponder:
BTW Augustin, where did you get the picture of the torroid winder? IIRC Elektor mag published that picture in the 1980s, although I dont know who drew it. What I noticed this time, which I didnt before, is the fact that the torroid is looped inside the big wheel. So, you have to disassemble and reassemble it every coil you do.

Terry, I found that Nuts and Volts article, but although the back copy is $5 it costs another $10 minimum to post it. I dont know how they decide the exchange rate, but I suspect they make it up as they go along and its probably one for one; so 15 quid. A bit steep IMO. But thanks for the try. I did buy a book from the USA some years back and got hopelessly ripped off on both postage ( not mentioned beforehand ) and the ludicrous exchange rate. And the book was complete rubbish! Unless companies quote a UKP, I avoid ordering. There seem to be several ways of tensioning, but that method used by the Japanese firm is interesting. If the wire slides between 2 flat discs, why doesnt it slide out the side? The side to side movement is interesting, too. You say it self-regulates if you leave a big enough gap between former and tensioner, but one metre would make it awkward.

It seems to me that a foot-operated pedal is almost mandatory. But what you want is some kind of progressive control, like the trigger on a cordless drill. I'm not sure how easy it would be to concoct a workable device. That way you can set the speed slow enough to do the side-to-side movement with your hands.
The other thing that is necessary, and which is the most essential requirement if you're playing rugby against an Irish team, is the ability to count.

Bruce
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atferrari
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Post Number: 761
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Posted on Wednesday, 19 August, 2009 - 05:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Got it from an issue of Elektor (Brazilian version), most probably between 1986 and 1988.
Agustín Tomás - Buenos Aires - Argentina
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joe
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Post Number: 626
Registered: 05-2005

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Posted on Wednesday, 19 August, 2009 - 05:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Search Ebay for "bobbin winder".
Yes, there used for wool or cotton bobbins for sewing machines, but may be modifyable.

joe
Do one thing each day that scares you – work here !
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cammhifi
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Post Number: 21
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Posted on Wednesday, 19 August, 2009 - 07:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Bruce
Check this out:

http://solomonsmusic.net/coil_winder.html

Mac
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gajjer
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Post Number: 245
Registered: 05-2007

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Posted on Wednesday, 19 August, 2009 - 08:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi cammhifi
that's similar to a setup I use. I get on with it ok.

I would just say that when I wind coils of that many turns, I do it in neat layers. Perhaps 100 turns per layer. I start each layer 1mm from the bobbin end and stop 1mm from the other end. Then I wrap a single layer of paper round that layer and tape it in position. Then proceed with the subsequent layers in the same way. My guess is that this is for Bruce's Dolls House Electric Fence. So there is going to be perhaps 500V on the winding. Now it may be overkill but I would not want the last winding to be anywhere near the first winding. Ok it may be slow and you are best to prepare the paper strips and tape beforehand but better safe than waste a lot of time.

Personally I would steer clear of motorising too. You can get in an awful muddle if it goes to fast and its not too good for square bobbins - the wire gets jerked and the supply bobbin will not stop when the motor stops.

Definitely have a counter.

To tension the wire feed through some felt or similar. I'm sceptical of the metal/ceramic plates. I would have thought that would damage the insulation - especially on fine wire. And you don't want that with 500V on it.

Good luck. Hope it deters the intruders!! Barbie can be such a party gate crasher!!

cheers
gaj

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