| Author |
Message |
    
bruce
Frequent Contributor
Username: bruce
Post Number: 272
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, 22 February, 2010 - 12:24 pm: | 
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Hi,
( I posted a thread on this last night: I got zero replies which was odd. I cant see any sign of the thread, so here it is again )
I bought a PIC kit 2 ages ago and I've only just opened it. I last meddled ( in things I dont understand ) 10 years ago! I thought I'd beter get back into it.
I'm struggling here. I loaded the 2 CDs. It says " click on ....microchip\PIC 2\lesson 1. " Well, I cant get any lesson 1.
For an amateur, reading the instruction manual from Microchip is like watching paint dry. I need a more basic ( no, not BASIC ) intro until I get the hang of it. I cant be the first person who's struggled like this. Did EPE do a 'guide' for the kit2?
I'm off to lie down in a darkened room.
Bruce |
alec_t
Frequent Contributor
Username: alec_t
Post Number: 187
Registered: 03-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, 22 February, 2010 - 02:09 pm: |
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Bruce, your post was under 'broadband incident' which in turn was under 'laptop batteries'. You need to be in the CZ root directory to post new threads.
HTH,
Alec
Nostalgia: it's not what it used to be.
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violin
Regular Contributor
Username: violin
Post Number: 42
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, 22 February, 2010 - 02:51 pm: |
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Hi. If the CD's have been installed correctly there should be a direct path from the Local C directory to the PICkit2 (PK2) Lessons. Regards |
muskrat
Frequent Contributor
Username: muskrat
Post Number: 164
Registered: 06-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, 22 February, 2010 - 04:28 pm: |
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If I remember correctly, I had a similar problem. The link to the lessons was not functional. I had to navigate to the lessons folder and run them from there. |
bruce
Frequent Contributor
Username: bruce
Post Number: 273
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, 22 February, 2010 - 08:14 pm: |
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Thanks Alec,
I did know that ( I got caught once before ) ; I guess I just took my eye off the ball.
Muskrat, I took your advice and had a look around. The software puts files into the C:\ dir.
Owing to an administrative cock-up ( yes, yes, it was my own fault ) my main diectory is H: with C: as backup. I couldnt be bothered to sort it out, but the CD put some files in C: so they didnt link properly.
I did get it going ( a steep learning curve I think ) and did lessons 1 and 2. Should have taken about 2 mins, but actually took slightly longer: an hour and a half. The good news is that I missed East Enders, which is marginally worse than Chris Moyles.
Bruce |
atferrari
Frequent Contributor
Username: atferrari
Post Number: 833
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, 22 February, 2010 - 09:44 pm: |
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Useless additional info: today, Chris celebrates his birthday.
Agustín Tomás - Buenos Aires - Argentina
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hackinblack
Frequent Contributor
Username: hackinblack
Post Number: 468
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, 23 February, 2010 - 11:27 am: |
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the one consolation is the files supplied with 'kit 2 aren't the shambles supplied with 'kit1...
the guide on gooligum electronics site covers base and midline pics,with the low pin count board using smaller pics
with a couple of jumper wires plugged in to the edge connector to reach the extra '20-pin' LED's,in both assembly and C
these should get you further than M'chips files |
bruce
Frequent Contributor
Username: bruce
Post Number: 277
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, 23 February, 2010 - 11:46 am: |
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Thanks Hack
I guess this stuff isnt designed by M'chip for total amateurs.
I went through John Becker's 1998 tutorial and got familiar with programming the 16F84. I havnt done anything for ages and I've now got to laboriously re-learn it.
I would imagine that the original 1998 tutorial would work just as well on the 16F690 in PIC kit 2. After all, it's only the way it's being programmed that's different.
I'm not going to mess with 'C', although I have downloaded the GCBASIC PIC compiler. Does anyone have experience of using it?
Bruce |
bruce
Frequent Contributor
Username: bruce
Post Number: 280
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, 23 February, 2010 - 08:25 pm: |
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Hi,
I have a couple of questions about the 16F690 'lessons':
1. The 16F84 had 2 'pages' or 'banks' I believe. I understood the 16F690 also had 2, yet on the datasheet there seems to be 4 ( banks 0,1,2,3 )
2. the delay loop selects a file, calls it 'delay' and then uses the DECFSZ instruction. But what is in the file? Does it default to binary 1111 1111?
bruce |
davejs
Member
Username: davejs
Post Number: 8
Registered: 09-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, 25 February, 2010 - 01:12 pm: |
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Bruce, You wrote :-
"I'm not going to mess with 'C', although I have downloaded the GCBASIC PIC compiler. Does anyone have experience of using it?"
Well I haven't, but I have been using the Oshonsoft BASIC compilers / simulators for a couple of years and have found them to be very good and easy to use once you get used to using the human interface (following the "getting started" examples aids this immensely). There is also a good forum for them on Yahoo groups.
Dave |
staceyfinn
Member
Username: staceyfinn
Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, 26 February, 2010 - 08:23 pm: |
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I have been through the 1998 tutorials too - which are excellent. I must admit though, I do find programming in C for pics a bit easier. It was mike hibbits "C for PICS which got me started and i haven't looked back. This means using the PIC18's which have loads of features. Microchip provide lots of functions with their free C18 compiler. I'd log into the microchip website and download the free "C lessons for the PICKit3" (I don't have a PICKit 3). It will highlight how easy it is to get going with C for PICs. Hope this helps |
istedman
Frequent Contributor
Username: istedman
Post Number: 155
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, 27 February, 2010 - 12:19 am: |
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Davejs:
the delay loop selects a file, calls it 'delay' and then uses the DECFSZ instruction. But what is in the file? Does it default to binary 1111 1111?
This code assumes that the variable delay defaults to 0. The instruction DECFZ, is Decrement file and skip if the content of the file/registe ris zero. The order of the instruction is inportant here.
If you start with 0, subtract 1, you get %11111111 or $ff, so on the first loop it is definitely not 0, repeat this 255 times and you get to 0.
With regard to compilers, take your pick (no pun intended). I use BoostBasic and Boost C from Sourceboost (www.sourceboost.com), good software and good support forums. A little lacking on example for beginners though.
Choice of compiler and language is an individual preference.
I used GCBASIC for a project 3 years ago. It was quite primitive then and did not directly support MPLAB debugging with the ICD2 clone I had at the time. It was possible to debug the project but only from the assembler, not the BASIC source code.
I would recommend using a compiler that supports either MPLAB intgreation or the PICKIT2 debugger, it will make your life easier once you understand the debugger.
HTH
Ian |
bruce
Frequent Contributor
Username: bruce
Post Number: 281
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, 27 February, 2010 - 09:52 am: |
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Hello guys,
Thanks for that.
The business of the compiler pales into insignificance compared to the problem I had with the 16F690 'lessons'. I got stuck on lesson 2 and for 3 days I was going nuts. I posted to lots of places, but got zero replies. ( Was it something I said, or do I have to change my brand of aftershave? ).
I did the 1998 16F84 tutorial and, while I wont pose a threat to Bill Gsates, I did understand it. \I did not follow the syntax for lesson 2. Luckily, now I'm with it.
However, I do wish to complain, in the strongest possible terms, about the dopey syntax in the DECFSZ instruction. In the tutorial, in Bob Penfold's book and in the 16F690 datasheet, the syntax is DECFSZ, file, d where d is 0 or 1.
Instead, the syntax uses 'f'. The effect is the same as using '1', of course, but I never knew you could monkey with the syntax like that. In every text I've ever encountered, d has to be 0 or 1. I hate to be picky ( sorry! ), but as this is intended for beginners, I think this was daft.
Likewise, it had escaped me that you can actually decrement an empty file! I'm sure it's a clever trick, but for a beginner lesson?
OK, now for lesson 3. What fun!
Bruce |
hackinblack
Frequent Contributor
Username: hackinblack
Post Number: 471
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, 27 February, 2010 - 11:05 am: |
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i thought the 'radix' was stated at the start of the listing so the reader knows which is in use i.e. hex bin or dec;
if it isn't how can you get away with changing part way through the code?
or does MPlab change it before compiling?
half the problem with example code is their is no standardisation between one author and another;especially,as it seems,from microchip's OWN file releases!
useful...NOT
i supose the problem is explaining EVERYTHING for a complete beginner would soon alienate more experienced users...but missing things like this out certainly mess my head about |
atferrari
Frequent Contributor
Username: atferrari
Post Number: 834
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, 27 February, 2010 - 12:09 pm: |
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Objectively, EVERYTHING seems to have the right / need to be explained first what besides alienating people, is impossible.
But let me tell you that if you go from simpler to most complete / complex what happened to Bruce should occur very seldom.
My experience (from when teaching at the university things I do every day): never take for granted the listener will understand you and what is evident for you maybe not evident for him.
In an explanation (whether a paragraph, a chapter or a whole tutorial) where many concepts are tightly chained (micros are a good example) do tie all knots before moving ahead.
I imagine the process like climbing a ladder, step by step. Simple as that. How do you climb it? one by one starting at the first.
I still recall the book from Ronald Zacks about programming the Z80 as one of the best I ever read. Learnt my first micro, in a 15-days voyage from Curaçao to the River Plate. Marvelous.
Like that, I am not promoting laziness in the reader but an easy understanding. Painful learning could make eventually for a well sedimented knowledge but leaves bad taste.
As a 100% selft taught person, I know that.
And besides that, there is TIME, the sole thing you cannot recover. Let me spend it my way!!
Agustín Tomás - Buenos Aires - Argentina
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bruce
Frequent Contributor
Username: bruce
Post Number: 283
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, 03 March, 2010 - 10:20 am: |
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Hi,
In the last week I've been poking around and things are looking up.
I got some useful pointers from the 'All About Circuits' forum. I found those guys very helpful. It cleared up the syntax problem I had. Another really helpful thing was being put onto 'gooligum'. I thought his tutorials on the 12F509 were much better than the 690 stuff.
It's not all good news. I hate to complain, but here goes anyway: I bought my PIC kit 2 from SKPang who included about 10 free PICs. Only when I took a look did I see that they were pretty useless. They include the 16F54, 57 and 59. These 3 chips seem very odd to me. They dont seem to have anything on them except I/O ports; they cant be programmed by the very PIC kit 2 they came with and, although they are part of a set, unless I misunderstand, they all need totally different circuits to program them, since theres no consistency in pinout. The '59' has got so many I/O it might make a good LED display!
Bruce |
terrym
Frequent Contributor
Username: terrym
Post Number: 718
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, 03 March, 2010 - 11:26 am: |
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Did you look at the datasheet for the 'F' or 'C' version?
The 'F' version is an updated ic and programs the same as 16F84, 16F628's etc.
The 'C' versions are old and needed parallel i/faces to program.
TM |
bruce
Frequent Contributor
Username: bruce
Post Number: 284
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, 03 March, 2010 - 11:47 am: |
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Hello terry,
Yes, I avoided the 'C' datasheet since I assumed that it must be an OTP; only later did I find it was a parrallel device anyway. I'm sure I have the right datasheet.
However, I made a Freudian slip in my last post. In fact, it CAN be programmed by the PIC kit 2; it just cant be done with that LPC demo board that comes with the PIC kit 2, which is why I thought it was a bit of a swizz to include it in that package. I got the distict impression they were simply trying to offload their obsolete PICs while pretending to do us a favour. Salesmen, huh!
Unless I'm missing something here, one needs to construct a separate board for each of those 3 PICs to allow each to be programmed in-circuit by the PIC kit 2. So, I suppose you'd just make your device anyway, insert PIC and program in-circuit.
The '84' is well obsolete and expensive. What's a good place to get the '628'?
Bruce |
hackinblack
Frequent Contributor
Username: hackinblack
Post Number: 475
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, 03 March, 2010 - 02:45 pm: |
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nah,not obsolete,just slow-sellers!
farnell did a similar deal when i bought my 'kit2
but mostly small soic chips;which cant be plugged in to the LPC board either
some of the newer PIC's are actually cheaper than the 'old favourates'
have a look at crownhill or Rapid;i got some 16LF72 low-power pin compatible with the 16F872 for about 90p each umpteen I/O, A2D ports,serial hardware,all you could want but you are limited to the 14 pin maximum on the low pin count board unless you just use ICSP;which is a much better idea (have you ever tried unsoldering double-sided protoboard!!as used in the LPC board?) |
bruce
Frequent Contributor
Username: bruce
Post Number: 285
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, 04 March, 2010 - 06:52 pm: |
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Hello Ian,
I thought I might just give the F54 a try by making a breadboard for it along with some LEDs. It might be a useful learning experience.
In any case, what could possibly go wrong?
Bruce |
bruce
Frequent Contributor
Username: bruce
Post Number: 288
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, 09 March, 2010 - 08:30 pm: |
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Hello guys,
I'm a man of my word and I have indeed made a breakout board for the 16F54. I have a connector that goes to the PIC kit2. It's a big board which I hope will give me space to do bigger things later. For now, I just have 4 LEDs attached to the 4 pins of PORT A. Now, to check the wiring, I connected it to the PICkit2 expecting to be able to use the 5V from the programmer. But there is no 5V on the Vdd pin even though the PIC kit2 is on. Is this is normal? You program the PIC in situ and then run the thing to see if it works. How does that work if theres no 5V on Vdd? After all, the Low Pin Count board doesnt have its own supply.
Bruce |
joe
:::: Super User ::::
Username: joe
Post Number: 743
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, 10 March, 2010 - 05:02 am: |
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Bruce,
IIRC, when you run up the PICKit 2 software, on the right hand side of the screen there are two check boxs.
One says something about MCLR and the other says VSS on??? you need to select the VSS on box.
You can also set the PIC's working voltage there as well.
Sorry, not near a PC with PICKIT2 loaded at the mo so can't be more accurate.
Joe
Read my ramblings - www.techbites.com/joe-farr
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bruce
Frequent Contributor
Username: bruce
Post Number: 289
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, 10 March, 2010 - 08:41 am: |
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Hello Joe,
Thanks; you're absolutely right. I've checked the box and now it's all OK. Well, so far anyway!
Bruce |
bruce
Frequent Contributor
Username: bruce
Post Number: 290
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, 10 March, 2010 - 04:23 pm: |
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Hi,
It's not all good news, unfortunately. I'm using a PIC 16F54 which I had handy. If you look at MPLAB and the PICkit2 menu they both say this PIC is supported, but when you select it in the Project Wizard, the PIC kit2 programmer comes up negative. Odd.
Can anyone enlighten me as to what is going on here?
Bruce |
caroper
Member
Username: caroper
Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, 10 March, 2010 - 09:13 pm: |
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I cant enlighten you as to why it happens as I gave up fighting the illogical Project wizard long ago. But I have had cases where MP-LAB say that a Chip is not supported by pickit 2 but the Pickit 2 standalone software supports it with no problem.
I have especially noticed this since the Pickit 3 was released, I hope it is not a cheep trick to get people to upgrade.
What I do is keep the the Pickit2 software open along with mplab and then use the short cut keys to program after the compile stage,
alt-tab to switch windows
ctrl-1 to reload last hex file
enter to write to chip
it also has a great feature to auto load and program when the hex file changes.
Hope that helps.
Cheers
Chris |
hackinblack
Frequent Contributor
Username: hackinblack
Post Number: 481
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, 10 March, 2010 - 10:07 pm: |
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the project wizard,i think uses what they call 'boilerplate' code written by microchip;
if they havnt written code for this low-end PIC,it wont show up!
their header files are really out of date too,some of the chips are obsolete!
sometimes there is a delay between what MPLAB documentation says and what it does support;
they are always playing catchup
i think they have stopped adding devices to pickit1 support,for example;and a lot of chips are supported 'soon'
attention must have shifted to their new 'baby' 'kit3...sometimes it seems like technology
is in too much of a hurry |
caroper
Member
Username: caroper
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, 10 March, 2010 - 11:12 pm: |
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on my main development PC I have the old version of MP-LAB that came on the Pickit CD, on the laptop I have the latest version, and the old one shows several chips supported by Pickit2 and the now none shows them as only supported by pickit 3. so they have actively removed pickit 2 support.
to me the environment should support the tools I purchased, not the tools they want me to purchase.
If necessary I will just avoid upgrading MP-lab until I need it for newer chips. |
bruce
Frequent Contributor
Username: bruce
Post Number: 291
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, 10 March, 2010 - 11:36 pm: |
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I am getting well confused here. If I understand this, you can program the F54 with the PICkit2, but by ducking out of MPLAB and fiddling with the PICkit2 standalone software.
Is that correct? How did they program the F54 in the old days? Like, before the Boer War?
Bruce |
terrym
Frequent Contributor
Username: terrym
Post Number: 719
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, 10 March, 2010 - 11:43 pm: |
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With a hammer and chisel. 
TM |
caroper
Valued Member
Username: caroper
Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, 10 March, 2010 - 11:48 pm: |
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"Like, before the Boer War?" How did you know I was British born and living in South Africa
I have not personally used an F54, but what I was trying to say is use MP-LAB as the development editor/compiler/linker which it does well, but then use the standalone Pickit software as the programmer, which it does better than MP-Lab. |
istedman
Frequent Contributor
Username: istedman
Post Number: 156
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, 10 March, 2010 - 11:50 pm: |
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Bruce,
Take a look here:
http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en027813
This lists what devices can be programmed unsing the PICKIT2 software and those devices you can program using MPLAB.
You can see that more devices are supported by the PICKIT2 programmer software than MPLAB.
There are numerous standalone programmers for the PIC16F54, from Microchip and third party vendors, some are listed in the datasheet.
HTH
Ian |
bruce
Frequent Contributor
Username: bruce
Post Number: 292
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, 11 March, 2010 - 10:14 am: |
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Hello guys,
Ian, I had seen that page, but I hadnt really noticed the MPLAB side. All I saw was that the PICkit2 did the F54. The MPLAB\Project Wizard allows you to select the F54 so they got me confused ( not a difficult task ).
One thing did occur: if you program a PIC using the PICkit2 in conjunction with MPLAB software, it automatically selects the right Vpp, I guess. If you use the PICkit2 alone, you have to select it manually, I assume. For the F54 Vpp is 12V I believe.
So I'm going to do that. Like I say: what could possibly go wrong?
Bruce |
caroper
Valued Member
Username: caroper
Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, 11 March, 2010 - 05:34 pm: |
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Hi Ian,
They both select the programming voltage automaticaly, but with the Pickit software you can adjust the supply to the device under test. I find it a great feature as I can prototype at the normal 5V but then run power down to 3V or less to see how my design handles low voltages, especially if it will be battery powered. That is the control you see on the Right.
Cheers
Chris |
bruce
Frequent Contributor
Username: bruce
Post Number: 293
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, 11 March, 2010 - 08:15 pm: |
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Chris,
I think you may be confusing me with Ian. It's fairly easy to tell us apart - he's the one who knows what he's doing. It was me who asked the question about the Vpp. I wasnt aware the PICkit2 stand-alone software selected Vpp automatically. I'm still a bit wary and will keep an eagle eye on it as it tries to program the PIC
Bruce |
bruce
Frequent Contributor
Username: bruce
Post Number: 296
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, 12 March, 2010 - 10:09 am: |
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Hello again Chris,
I programmed the F54 chip last night with a huge program of, I think, 4 lines of code. Maybe it was five, if you count 'END'. No stopping me now.
It would be more accurate to say I tried to...
The programming voltage for this PIC is 12V. The checkbox on the right ( MCLR ) wont go over 5V. Mmmm. The software said ' programmed successfully'. What do they know? Mind you, there was something in hex when I pressed 'READ', so maybe it worked. Bit of a puzzle, frankly.
It didnt work, but that isnt necessarily the code/program. This PIC has no internal oscillator. To save time, instead of using a crystal, I used a res/cap combo ( as per datasheet ) Oddly, the datasheet gives no guidance on what values to use. I used 1K plus 1n, but there is nothing on pin 15, the OSC2/CLKOUT pin, which should show the clock. Odd.
Bruce |
caroper
Valued Member
Username: caroper
Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, 12 March, 2010 - 10:20 am: |
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Hi Bruce,
Sounds like it programmed ok.
The 5V in the box is power to the chip, not Vpp - The programing Voltage - that is selected by the pickit itself, generated internally and fed out on pin 1 of the header. the 5V (or whatever you select) is on pin 2.
If you are unsure after programing, you can hit the verify button to compare the contents to the hex file.
Now that you are up to 5 lines of code you may have to start optimizing it to fit |
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